Kayvan Mashayekh: 0:02

Producers Without Borders welcomes you to our final broadcast of 2025. Hi, my name is Kayvan Mashayekh, and I'm the founder of PWB. The following discussion was recorded during the Focused Film Production and Locations Conference in London, England between myself and world-renowned UC Berkeley Professor of Mathematics, Dr. Edward Frenkel. The subject matter is the hottest topic enveloping the world of creativity and the subsequent reverberations it has caused as we rapidly shift into a world of uncertainty and anxiety as to what it all means to us as sentient beings. Will human intelligence ever be overtaken by generative artificial intelligence? Let's dive right in to unlock fact from fiction as we embark on this journey together. Dr. Frenkel, just um I'd like for you to take us out into this world of this hidden reality of the human intelligence versus artificial intelligence. The floor is yours. Thank you.

Edward Frenkel: 1:00

Kayvan and I have known each other for many years. I am no stranger to film production myself. I made a short film uh in 2009 in Paris with uh French film director Reine Graves, which is called Rights of Love and Math. Rights uh R-I-T-E-S, like rituals of love and math. It's a homage to a film, a short film by Yukio Mishima, a great Japanese author who made actually a short film based on one of his short stories. And uh it's kind of a crazy thing we did. It was silent with Wagner's Tristan und Isolde old playing. Um we followed Mishima's aesthetics on the on a set on a stage of an old theater, and I played the main character as well. So I kind of tried, you know, tried being an actor and a and a and a director and uh uh script writer, and I observed also all the people, great people, you know, the the director of photography, the lighting people, and so on, because it's kind of like serious production. Um the film is available online, so you can find it by by just going to my website, edwardfrenkel.com. But I just want to say, so I I tried it and I kind of realized that you know it's it's much harder, it was much harder than I thought. But I did have a glimpse, and it's 2009, so it was still we used uh an analog camera, so it didn't use an HD cam actually. Um it was just before the digital cameras became widely available. So that gives me a little perspective because I understand this conference is more about with people who are actually involved in day-to-day production, film production, right? So um I have been thinking a lot about the advent of AI and the accelerating pace at which artificial intelligence uh invades our lives, really, and determines a lot of things about ourselves, whether we are aware of it or not. And uh I have spoken about this uh publicly for many years. Actually, first time in 2014, I was already talking about the dangers of AI, not AI itself, but dangers of our misperception of our relationship to this new technology. Of course, since then it has uh advanced tremendously, and especially in the last three years, uh since the advent of ChatGPT. And I've been using it myself, and I have observed my friends using it, and I see how sometimes people have a wrong understanding of what it is. And it's almost on the one hand, there is this desire to relinquish our authority and our agency as human beings, and on the other side, closely tied to it, a fear of this new technology. A fear on a basic level of what if this thing will take my job? What am I gonna do? Or the fear of how these computers will kill us or something, you know. So I see my job as someone who had a proper education in mathematics, in computer science, who has really looked under the hood, if you will, of this new technology. I see my job in is in uh in spreading this knowledge, in sharing my knowledge, and also debunking some of the things that I see and hear on the you know in various conversations with some of my colleagues who, quite frankly, have a very wrong understanding of what it is, by virtue of their own, how should we say, incomplete spiritual up bringing. And I know because these are my people, these are my brothers and sisters, and I have gone through this process myself. I was one who was tempted to say it uh it's all it can also all be um machines can be just as intelligent as humans. We are ourselves little machines, we are ourselves bags of particles, or packs of neurons, or sequences of zeros and ones. So now there is here's a program which is a sequence of zeros and ones. Well, it can be much more powerful than me. So, and it will overpower me, and so on. And so my job is to say bullshit to this, you know, quite frankly, because I know mathematical theorems which prove that these computer programs do lack understanding at the level at we at which we humans have understanding, or compassion for that matter. They're built to imitate us based on the knowledge humanity has acquired in thousands of years. And that's I'm not saying anything controversial. We know how large language models work. They simply absorb all the corpus of human knowledge through text, but now so now also through videos and so on, created by humans through our sweat and blood.

Kayvan Mashayekh: 5:42

All right, that's gonna stop you right there.

Edward Frenkel: 5:44

So yes, you know, the the these things that you're talking about. So they correlate, just to finish this, they correlate, they find patterns in this data, they correlate. And and then they produce new words, new tokens from the which are more likely amongst all the stuff that humans have created. So, in what sense can we say that they are actually creating something? Right.

Kayvan Mashayekh: 6:04

But let's let's not basically not rooted in our knowledge. Let me let me stop you right there. Like so the these things that have been created um uh by um mathematicians and and very, very smart people, the this generative AI that's been created, um, it is now a tool for the person who, for many years, was probably in a basement and was told that they're not creative enough, they're not smart enough, they don't they don't have the right tools, they don't have any money, nobody reads their script, nobody can understand their vision of doing things. So they created this world through these algorithms where you can text something and all of a sudden that image can appear. And that story can be just as clunky as a human-made story, uh, where human intelligence was behind the creative and entire creative process. So now they're they're using these tools as a way to amplify their own voices, to get their stories out there in a way that's a lot more efficient, a lot more uh uh uh how do I say it? A lot less expensive for them to get their thoughts out there, to get their own audience and to create.

Edward Frenkel: 7:03

It's a great accelerator. It is a great accelerator. It's a great tool. But see, that's the right attitude, what you're just saying. However, attitude as a tool, right? As something that enhances our abilities, as something that we can also use as a catalyst, as a challenge. Uh to ask ourselves what do I bring to the table? What can I do that ChatGPT cannot do yet? Or an AI system. And the good analogy for me is the invention of camera in the 19th century. Because up until then, a big part of the uh process of an artist, a visual artist, was to render things realistically, right? So uh portraits, landscapes, and so on. So suddenly, boom, there is a camera which can do it more realistically than you can. So, what did artists do? Did they say our job is finished, we are done, this thing came and will take over? No. They realized that they could actually pursue other venues of connecting to the viewer, of expressing themselves. Art became visual art, it became more about the inner world of the artist or the viewer. You got impressionism, post-impressionism, abstract art, surrealism, cubism, dadaism, and so on, right? So that's I envision um the advent of artificial intelligence in cinema production as this as something that has similar and perhaps much bigger possibilities. If only we approach it with the right attitude, the way artists did in the 19th century, early 20th century, you see, where you say, okay, good, I take it as a challenge. I want this will help us. First of all, it will free us up from doing some of the things which were time-consuming and uh resource-consuming, right? But at the same time, we'll come up with something, boom, which we couldn't even think of before, because we didn't have to. Because it's the nature of human to be sort of like uh allow ourselves complacency and be lazy and just keep going day to day. Because you know, some people say, Oh, but now people are afraid that what's going to happen with my job, and so on.

Kayvan Mashayekh: 9:06

Yeah, but I mean that's a real reality because when when you're working uh uh and you're seeing in the world of production, things are getting um, so to speak, more efficient. So a lot of people are losing their jobs in in a in a craft and a skill that they've developed because of the knowledge that they've acquired all throughout those years to get to that certain point where they are having that unique voice that you're talking about. And some jobs, I'm sorry to say, will be lost. And that's a natural process of evolution. So so but but what I'm what I'm trying to get at is there is a human cost to all of this. Absolutely. That creativity, that advancement. But that's normal, it has always been happening. It is normal. It's not something unusual. Dr. Franklin, what I'm what I'm trying to say is there's always a counterargument to all this, and I know you're aware of this. All I'm trying to let you know is there's a panoply of different things that come out of this. There's also think about the mental health issues that come out of it. How it affects you if you lose your job to a machine. And you don't you you feel helpless. You feel like, where do I go? How do I start? I'm I'm over the age of 35, and I have to learn a new skill, and I have to apply a new thing, and I don't know how to do it because these digital natives, these kids, these teenagers, have 10 times the knowledge that I have. And that that's what the world needs because you know they're they're growing up on a vertical uh screen, and they're growing up on stuff that's on YouTube and and TikTok, and I'm competing against that. So there is that argument also where that that fear, that human fear of uncertainty is a real human feeling. And so though those that the creatives that uh the creativity of the human mind and its ability to do all that stuff, as these LLMs are being fed. For example, somebody like you. You're you're the way I am in the same boat. I know we're all in the same boat.

Edward Frenkel: 10:48

People say soon mathematicians will not be important. Right. So I will lose my job too. I have I can have the same fear. Now, the difference is I am grounded in knowing who I am. And in part because I have had the privilege of having a good education where I learn Gdel's incompleteness theorem, Tarski and definability theory, and so on, which enables me to see that these machines are not humans. The computer programs are tools, they do not have their own inherent understanding. Because I know that I am not a bag of particles. I know that from my study of quantum physics. But you also realize I know that I'm not a sequence of zeros and ones. So I am here to share this with you because, quite frankly, we've been indoctrinated in our society by these absolute ideas of determinism. Gee, I have no free will because it's my neurons. My consciousness comes from my brain, and I'm well educated in that area as well, and I'm here to say that is not true. So I think that the right attitude, but the right attitude comes from knowing who I am. So it's it might sound weird that the mathematician here is preaching some sort of, and you may think, some kind of new agey stuff. But I think it is essential because we have gotten to the point that if you believe you're a bag of particles, if you believe that you're just a computer program, just like this computer program that you work with, like Chat GPT, you're done, you're cooked. I'm sorry. You have to up your game also in terms of your spiritual grounding, scientific grounding and spiritual grounding. And who else to preach it to than to film people? Because on the one hand, you may be afraid and you may be worried about your job and so on. But guess what? The world at right at large is also worried. But you have a big function to show us movies which will inspire us, which will help us to see who we are. So if you yourself have a wrong understanding of it, what do we expect from you? You're failing at your job. So I'm a messenger here to remind you of who you are, not to succumb to fear. You see what I mean? I'm sorry. Maybe I get too passionate about it. I know it sounds strange, a mathematician tells you this. You are supposed to tell me this. No. You see what I mean? But and many of you do, and most of you do. That's why you're here, by the way. Thank you for coming.

Kayvan Mashayekh: 13:04

Well, by the way, we're all human beings, so I I it's not that we don't appreciate what you're saying and not understand what you're saying. What I'm trying to um get to is the other side of the fence, so to speak. There's a psychology behind all of this, and that psychology of fear is a real tangible thing for many, many people because it makes them act in a certain way that's inconsistent to the things that they were taught, like yourself, up to up to a certain point in their life. And and what I'm trying to get at is how do we overcome these things in a way where they feel like that is really that it is not going to be something that's going to replace them, but it is an additive tool that enhances their ability to be creative. And then comes another issue. At some point it becomes dilutive. All this content that's created that's what 100% human-made is going to be diluted with stuff that's machine-made. And then it's going to be half and half. And our cerebral cortex, Dr. Frenkel, will not be able to ascertain the difference between what is real and what is not real. And that dilutive nature, and that dilutive nature, allow me for one minute to speak, is it will reach a point, it will reach a point where I think it will be uh there will be a point where you can't you cannot uh you cannot feel what's real anymore. You can try to but it's but what and then we are all advancing in age. Because if you believe that to be the case, we'll be the case to you. I understand that, but we're up, we're all advancing in age as a human. Don't speak for yourself. Yeah, maybe maybe you're you're this is an AI that I'm speaking of to right now. Maybe he's not even the real I'm talking to uh Edward AI. So but but the great thing is that all of it because all of all of all this information, by the way, that we're talking about right now, is you know being recorded at some point and being fed into an LLM. So the there's pe there's there's phones, there's all these ways of recording data and and and capturing that data and monetizing that data for the future. I do not agree, I do not disagree with anything you're saying. What I'm trying to do is find this medium, how we are going to inspire So let's be practical. But we you can be practical about it, and as long as you were saying to me, as long as there's a human in charge of this. Human at the helm. That's right.

Edward Frenkel: 15:27

Artist at the center. And when I say artist, I mean every side of film production, starting with the screenplay and the directing, and but the lighting and all the stuff, because obviously lighting people are especially worried now, or people who uh make the decor and the stage production and the costumes. Because now there is a fear that, oh gee, we can now have like 30-second videos which look almost, you know, like you said, um no different from human-made films. And so who knows, maybe in two years there will be a two-hour movie, which is like that. But on the other hand, don't you notice that people now also there is a positive opposite push to analog. There are more people who want to go and experience live music in a bar or in a in a in a concert hall. There are people who are buying flip phones, excuse me, from 20 years ago. Why is that? It's because intuitively all of us know that when it's computer made, it's just some synthetic element to it. It is sort of a common denominator in a sense. Uh it's it's oh, I've seen that before. We get amazed that it looks so realistic, but deep down we also recognize that we've seen it before. So remember, I'll give you one example. Uh Stanley Kubrick, you know, and I'm friends with Kubrick's family through my film. And um Barry Linden, okay, there's a famous movie in which he took pride in filming it in candlelight. So he had to have a huge lens uh to be able to do it. But uh people can say now, okay, but now can't you do can't you feed it into the LLM and it will produce something similar? Yes, but it's not the same as as what it happened when you watched the real movie, especially it was revolutionary at the time. But even today, people still want to go and watch this, right? So there is something, there is some ability, some uh innate ability of a human to be able to discern it, perhaps unconsciously. So I'm not so worried. In other words, I'm I'm I'm not disagreeing with you that superficially these new things will look similar. By the way, the scripts which they produce, uh they see, I I am tempted to call it they, but and it's common for human beings to uh it's called anthropomorphizing. I have a friend who feels that the vacuum cleaner, which kind of runs around, you know, when she enters the apartment uh of the friend, and a vacuum cleaner comes up to her because it has sensors, you know, and it's like, oh hello, how are you? That's normal, you see, but still, intuitively, you know it's not a cat or a dog. You see, so in other words, I agree with you that it be superficially it's similar. But on the other hand, this also may perhaps we will discover within ourselves an um uh hidden up to now ability to actually discern the difference between a vacuum cleaner, uh intelligent vacuum cleaner and an intelligent animal, you see, which we don't know yet. So don't give up so quickly, don't uh uh assume it as an axiom that gee, it will look indistinguishable. I I argue opposite. It looks indistinguishable at first glance. But eventually with proliferation of these videos and so on, we'll be so fed up with it, we will know. It's it's the same today. Uh sometimes you have actually some movies which are produced not necessarily entirely, the script is produced. But you know, used to be in focus groups. I mean, no pun intended, but you know, you see, I mean it's a different focus. Uh in other words, it is not so uncommon to have a synthetic script, quote unquote, in the sense that it's based on what the audience wants. But Stanley Kubrick did not ask what the audience wants. He or she used to say, I don't know what I want, but I know what I don't want. So that's why you would take he would have like infinitely many texts and some scenes and so on, it's like famous stories. But artist has something that uh he can surprise he or she can surprise us. And that is the innate and essential ability of a human being, of a human artist. So all I'm arguing is remember you are the center of it at what you do. And yes, maybe some parts of the production will will be gone, and some professions, you know, some people lose their job, and so on. But there is already CGI. It's been it's been uh here for a long time. In other words, it already became uh a staple of movies that some you don't do, you know, like if we have Marvel seed uh movies and you have seeds, they're not they haven't been shot you know on real st on real uh in a real way, so on on a stage, on in a studio, they have been shot using CGI. So, in other words, it's not that different, to be honest with you. So don't need to panic, no need to. Worry, but on the contrary, take as a challenge. That's what I'm trying to say. And how it is going to play out in different professions, I don't know. But I guarantee you that some of the people perhaps they will learn other skills where they will still be part of the process. For example, it's your mindset. If you if you start out by saying soon this stuff will happen which will be indistinguishable and I will lose my job, people get depressed and they kind of manifest it in their own lives. What I'm suggesting is a different approach. A different approach. And it sounds like a small change. But just believing deeply, believing deeply that I am not a machine, I'm not a bag of particles, I'm not a computer program. My consciousness is not limited to this so-called brain, you see. But uh how can you do it? Because you have uh constantly bombarded with these ideas. And you know, interesting enough, uh a week ago we were flying with my girlfriend, Anna sitting here, so it shall not be lie, it's true, and we were choosing a movie, uh, and on the plane we I watched two movies, which are about this materialists, you may have seen it, yeah, uh by Celine Celine Song. And another one, which was really great, also, and I I didn't know about it, came across to it by chance. Synchronicities, by the way, is one of the elements in our human life which kind of bring us back to the knowledge that gee, there is something more. So non-res non-rationalistic approach to life, but more holistic approach to life. How come this movie came to me exactly the right moment? It's called Thinking Game, and it's about Demis Hassabis, the co-founder of Deep Mind. I've been on his case for a long time, to be honest with you. And he's a super sweet guy, by the way. I have never met him, but I imagine that I have no doubt of his pure intentions. But in 2015, there was a famous episode where NIH, National Institute of Health of the United Kingdom, secretly gave access to Deep Mind, to their health data of human beings, without notifying anybody. And at that time, because they were already a subsidiary of Google, so it's essentially Google, um, I wrote a piece, uh, an oped, which I was just revisiting actually the last couple of days, which is entitled Google Should Not Be Allowed to Secretly Uh Obtain Our Our Health Data. And in which I criticize this. So Demis Hassabis is the head of this company. And he has done amazingly wonderful stuff. For instance, there is this program they created, which is called Alpha Fold 2, by which uh they are able this computer program can predict the protein folding just from the DNA sequences. And this can be used to cure diseases, to create new uh medical treatments, and so on, which is wonderful. And it he deservedly got a Nobel Prize with his colleague for this in physics in 2024. But Demis Hassabis also is on record, and in this movie it showed very clearly that human mind, human intelligence comes from the brain. And the brain is just a bunch of neurons. So, first of all, it doesn't come from the brain entirely. There is plenty of research. I just spent time with Michael Levin, Google him. He was interviewed recently by Lex Friedman, which, by the way, if you follow Lex Friedman, there is an interview with me, a three hour 45-minute interview, which you kind of allow you to see where I'm coming from, my story, and so on. How I came to the understanding that we are not bags of particles, through a lot of suffering, quite frankly. So, which is you know normal for a human being. But Demis Hassabis, the slogan, the motto of the company is solve intelligence, solve intelligence, which, by the way, solve life. But but mystery of life, I'm not the one I heard it first from Alan Watts, but actually goes to Van der Leo, the Dutch philosopher. Mystery of life is not a problem to solve. But a mystery to experience, to live. You see what I mean? But here you have a company whose motto is solve intelligence, solve life, because he believes genuinely that conscience comes from the brain. I just spent time with Michael Levin, who is a biologist at Tuft University in Boston. He has convincing proof that for animals and human beings, consciousness also comes from other parts of the body. Intelligence comes from other parts of the body. It is a fact, it's a scientific fact. Most people don't know about it because most of the megaphone is in the hands of people like Demis Hassabis. So what's his logic? And it's shown very well in a movie. So here the movies are doing a good job of showing us what's going on and showing the origin of his ideas. Conscience comes from the brain. The brain is just a bunch of neurons, which by the way, there are a lot of quantum effects in the brain, which are not captured by a neural network. And then he says, but I create an artificial neural network in machine learning. So why can't it do the same? And that to him is a solution. He says, We have found a meta solution to all life's problems. To me, it's just such uh misunderstanding. But because he has a megaphone, because he's a Nobel Prize winner, because people listen to him who didn't have a chance to study computer science or mathematics the way I have, or he had for that matter. Which, by the way, they use a very rudimentary mathematics from the 19th century. And I say, if it can solve everything, how come there is a language program, there is quantum physics? So this is all derivative from, excuse me, 19th century uh stupid things that we quite frankly, very elementary things that we I teach excuses in my multiverbal calculus course or linear algebra course, you see. But what is his origin? The beauty of this film it shows the origins. He was a child chess prodigy, born to immigrants. His father from Greece, I think, mother from from the Asia. They pushed him. And the poor boy, there have a video, it's super cute. He's playing these chess games and he hated it. So he said, I will create a machine which will beat all the grandmasters. Boom. And he did. And he did, you see. So in other words, it's a human story. It's quite frankly, childhood drama, which expresses itself through these somewhat foolish ideas, in my opinion. But we don't talk about this. However, in fact, Kayvan and I had a conversation at the stage of uh Marched Du Film Film Market at Cannes Festival on a similar topic. But at that in that conversation, which was six months before ChatGPT was released, I was we were already talking about these dangers. But one of the things, one of the points I made, actually was called uh new new new characters or new um in uh in um movies in uh age of AI. And I said, filmmakers show us the origin, the genesis of the scientists today who who tell us that we are bags of particles and so on. And guess what? My wish was answered. This film was made released, I think, a few months ago, uh, the thinking game. Because it shows clearly, they don't make the point as explicitly as I am. But I think a lot of people who watch it they will understand that this guy uh he he pretends that it's all scientific ideas, but in fact, he has a deep drive within himself to prove something, that he can create something. It's kind of a revenge of the nerds, I call it. You see, it's it's you know it's a famous story, also social uh network. Uh Mark Zuckerberg couldn't get a date. So he created Facebook. Okay? And look, I am the same way. These are my people. I went through the same process. But I was lucky that, you know, in my 40s I did connect to those childhood traumas, and I started seeing things which I didn't see before. And you know, everybody has their own path and their own journey. One day, perhaps Demis Hassabis will also realize what is driving him. Not some pure scientific progress, but there is a little boy sitting there who hated going to these games. And they showed it's really fascinating. Like there was this game where there were like a thousand people, and poor guy who has to play because his parents tell him that he should play nine years old. And he was fed up with it quite clearly in this movie. So, on the one hand, he's doing a lot of good. There's Alpha Fold II and so on, his Nobel Prize winning work. But on the other hand, for example, not being scrupulous at all about receiving this data from the National Institute of Health of the United Kingdom. But what does it mean? It means that surveillance, because they get all the information. They have the information about people's health, history, HIV status, who visited whom and hospital, then they correlate this data, and then they say, oh, gee, this capital program is so smart, it knows so much about me. Because they got your data. You see? So, but then we don't talk about this. So you see, twofold. On the one hand, understand yourselves what the genesis of all these ideas is, but also use it to create films like thinking game. Materialist is another one which is on the same topic. Okay, I I'm no no no.

Kayvan Mashayekh: 28:38

I I'm letting you I'm it's very important, and I I the last thing I want to do is take away what you're saying because at the end of the day, everybody's here to listen to your wisdom on the subject matter. My my my concern is always more on the practical aspect of young young younger children growing up in an age where they're tethered to their devices, and uh they're they're not listening to uh the elders and the people who are wise and have have this kind of uh knowledge that you have and are willing to pass it on so passionately and explain it to you. They're just disconnected with that because everything, their their information does not come from a book that from a library that you study back in Moscow and all the way now to the United States and becoming one of the most talked-about, well-known mathematicians in the world. They are getting it on their screen. And there's on that screen, there's misinformation, disinformation, whatever information that you said, those data, the the those data pools are being pushed out to get and influence that young mind. That's right. And that young mind needs more people like yourself, but how do you connect with somebody like that?

Edward Frenkel: 29:49

Well, how did the director of this film uh I forgot the name?

Kayvan Mashayekh: 29:52

Right. I mean, at the end of the day, it's the it has to find an audience. It has to find an audience and get it out there in a way that is going to be palatable and accessible to somebody that's but somebody's pushing for it. So distributor acquire acquire. Hang on, but this is why it's released. We're not gonna get into the issue of distributors and how distributors uh handle stuff. Because, you know, my God. We want to keep it positive. Yeah, let's let's keep it positive. I mean, this is a this is a room that's very, very well acquainted with the world of distribution and what happens when you sell to a distribution company and you know doesn't leave something to be desired on that.

Edward Frenkel: 30:30

By the way, so the way we connected is because he made a film about Omar Khayyam, the great Persian mathematician and uh astronomer, which to me he is like the original gangster of love and mass in some sense. So I have been inspired by him tremendously because he exemplified that union, that balance between logic and reason on one side, because he was really one of the top uh scientists, mathematicians of the era. He came up with a calendar, for instance, uh which is how he's gonna talk about. So he made this film because he uh is of origin and you know, uh rooted in Persian culture and Persian tradition. His father was a mathematician, you know, and Kayvan somehow never got to see the the beauty of mathematics because of atrocious state of our math education, I know. So, in some sense, the universe brought us together, kind of. But he had before we met, uh five years, ten years before, like six years ago, he made this film, which is called The Keeper, The Legend of Omar Khayyam, which by the way, he was kind of screwed over by distributors, so it is still not streaming. You still can't find it. It's a beautiful, absolutely incredible film. You see, so what's what drove him to do it in some sense, and it's very deep because Vanessa Redgrave is in it. This is a really beautiful film. And he's he shot it in Samarkand and Bukhara, in modern uh Uzbekistan, which was Persia at the time, with amazing costumes and stage stage design, right? So, what made you so that's an example of you as an artist coming up with this way ahead of your time in some sense. So I really hope that some distributors may be amongst you guys.

Kayvan Mashayekh: 32:04

No, let's let's let's we'll bring it out to the bosses. Let's we're gonna wrap this up because I mean there's people I know that have questions, and we have only a few minutes. Yeah. So if you have any questions, please raise your hand. We've got a mic ready to go. If you have any questions for either me or Dr. Frenkel, yes, ma'am, right there.

Audience Member: 32:22

So is there any point studying maths?

Kayvan Mashayekh: 32:25

Is there any point studying maths?

Edward Frenkel: 32:27

Yes. So it used to be, it used to be people said, so what I was when I when I wrote my book, Love and Math, this was 2013, and I was motivated by sort of uh uh sharing my knowledge because I saw how misinformed people are. And so the the I opened the book by saying, Imagine you had an art class in which you they were you were only taught how to paint fences and walls, and you were convinced that that's all there is to art. You never seen the beautiful paintings by Picasso and Leonardo da Vinci and Van Gogh. Of course, you would say art is boring. And if I need to uh paint my fence, I'll just hire somebody. That was the attitude towards mathematics. I'm happy to say that in the meantime, and I'm not saying it wasn't just my influence, other people around the same time, also start writing books, popular books, and so on. And now there is a new generation of young mathematicians who are less likely to be sort of um that guy in the corner of a cafe, but uh who go out in the public and who talk about it and then themselves are cool. They're DJs and whatnot, you know, which by the way, I became a DJ too. Influenced by Anna here. But um, you know, in other words, there is a process. But now I I'm when I'm interviewed, nobody's asking me why mathematics is important because people understand that mathematics is at the root. So, yes, it's good to study. So, for instance, check out my book. I also have uh uh a YouTube series which is called the Aftermath. You know, so it's like love and math, and now it's aftermath. Uh videos for the general audience on my on my YouTube channel, which is at Frankel. Uh, you find easily on YouTube. So the three episodes are out, and I talk about the nature of mathematics and archetypal nature of mathematics. We learn mathematics not from outside world, but from our inner worlds. So that's another way.

Kayvan Mashayekh: 34:09

So let's uh we gotta wrap this up really quickly because um we're very short on time and we're very strict on this. So I want to know what your three takeaways. What do you what are the three things you want this audience to walk away with today after this very, very lengthy and deep discussion? Three, give it to me now. Yes.

Edward Frenkel: 34:26

It goes by the numbers, by the way. Look, you say why mathematics is important. Three takeaways. Three takeaways. Nice. So number one. Number one, okay, so number one, think deep about what you can bring to the table in what whatever you do in film production that is not yet um susceptible, so to speak, to this language language models and so on. For instance, virtual reality, you know, I'm thinking. Eventually we'll be creating three-dimensional movies. So the ChatGPT will be behind because still do it two-dimensional, but we will do three-dimensional. So think about it and think big, kind of, you know, so just brainstorm, perhaps with your colleagues. That's number one. Number two, cultivate a relationship with someone in IT who is an expert. So I have a friend, Laurent Fabre, he knows him, who is my go-to guy to find out what's what, which programs are interesting, which are not, what they're capable of do, what is bullshit, what is less bullshit. I know my own understanding more from mathematics, but he's a computer scientist par excellence. And so he's my friend. So cultivate friendship with someone who is knowledgeable, or hire someone in your organization who will help you sort things out. Because be aware that there is a lot of misinformation just outside. But people in the know they know. And if you cultivate the relationship with someone, this will help you to see things in the right light. And number three, uh, this is kind of difficult to explain, but the point I was trying to make earlier, I would like to kind of double down on it. If you or I don't have a right understanding of our true nature, of what it means to be human, we are more likely to succumb to these fears or to succumb to misinformation. So maybe take a meditation core class or any practice which will ground you more in your spiritual essence, in your spiritual being. It is not new age stuff at all. It is real. And it's been through with human beings. Carl Jung talked about as a transcendental function or as an irrational sort of impulse of a human being, a search for God. And God is an overused term, so let's call it the universe or the universal consciousness or universal cosmic consciousness or something. It doesn't matter, whichever term is um good for you. But don't deny yourself that ability. And I know most of you are already there, so I'm preaching to the choir in a sense. But today we pushed, we are in this there's this imbalance, there's this idea that everything can be rationally explained. No, there can't be. There is intuition, there is imagination, there is a calling, higher calling. Reconnect to that or cultivate that connection. That is essential. That's my third takeaway. What are your three takeaways?

Kayvan Mashayekh: 37:05

Well, my three takeaways are we're running out of time, but I will give it to you how I think about it. The reason why we're here today is because of that exact thing that Dr. Frenkel is talking about. We met 15 years ago in a very serendipitous way on my father's birthday in Paris. It was very, very strange and went to a restaurant called Del Papa where we started. Which he picked, but he's doing out so a few years later, it comes down to one thing. Build your network, number one, build your network of human connectivity. That's the most important thing. Make sure the foundation of the network that you create with other humans has authenticity, integrity, and loyalty behind it. And number three, don't ever, ever give up on your dreams and don't let ever, ever let anybody's negativity become your reality. Those are my three spots.

Edward Frenkel: 37:53

And by the way, he is the founder of a network. He's talking about human network, Producers Without Borders. And I love that because without borders, we are limitless for who we are. So don't impose borders. These are all self-imposed limitations. So without borders, do everything you do without borders, without limits.

Kayvan Mashayekh: 38:12

That is correct, Dr. Frenkel. And and what what what what the final finishing thought about all this is the fact that every one of you in this room is a supercomputer within yourselves. You have incredible networks, you have incredible abilities, you have incredible skills, gifts, and knowledge. Some untapped, yes. Some are untapped. So please make sure that you you don't give up on yourselves. That's the number one thing. Because there's a lot of times where you feel overwhelmed and you feel like there's nobody listening to you. Reach out to your friends, reach out to your network, and be the best person you can. And with that, we are gonna wrap this session of Producers Without Borders and Focus London Show. Thank you very much.